Jason Williamson / Sleaford Mods

Sleaford Mods

A talk with Jason Williamson of Sleaford Mods

Jamie Macleod Bryden sits down to catch up with Jason Williamson of Sleaford Mods. In the current landscape they are one of Britain’s most truthful forces and their visceral live show needs to be experienced. It’s been ten years since the release of their seminal album “Divide and Exit” after their breakthrough album “Austerity Dogs” just before. It was an exciting time with Iggy Pop going viral playing them to his Cockatoo just one part of the madness. We catch up to talk about the album’s legacy and what lies next.

It’s the ten-year anniversary of “Divide and Exit”. So how does it feel to look back on it – ten years on?

It’s a bit weird because I kind of was really overcome with joy by “Divide and Exit”. When we finished it, it seemed that we had caught a moment, so to speak, and everything had come together. People knew us. It was our “Definitely Maybe”, our, “What’s the Story Morning Glory?” all rolled into one, and for that year, I lived in a bubble. I was completely consumed by the formula and where to go next with it. It was a mad time! We’re not the type of band to “blow up. blow up”, quite a niche band, although we have maximized our audience over the last two or three years. But I think it really did feel special for me and Andrew, you know?

Yeah. Particularly moments like that video of Iggy Pop playing “Tweet, Tweet, Tweet” to his Cockatoo. That must have felt special?!

Unreal. We just couldn’t believe it. You have people like Stewart Lee turning up to gigs and lots and lots of people name checking you on in social media. It was just weird. I think that was the album that defined the sound, so to speak. Then it was full speed ahead after that.

Yeah, I heard just after you did “Tied up in Notts”, you felt like you got it down as to just how to go forward and it just kind of kept coming.

Yeah, I think I just got more cottoned onto that hard rap kind of formula. Just beat, rant chorus, rant chorus, rant, finish. I think “Divide and Exit” was allowed to do that. I think when we got to “Key Markets”, I became slightly conscious that we could not just apply the same formula. But it just so happened that after a year and a half of not recording, things moved on. Everything shifted. You didn’t really have to make a conscious effort about changing the sound. It changed itself, you know?

Its lyrics feel very prescient still.

It was kind of talking about the nationalism and the extremism that was served up to people. You had UKIP kicking the bucket, and things were getting really nasty. It was an expression of all of that. It’s not hard, is it? Because it’s like a repetitive cycle in this country. We have the nasty Tories, and then a more merciful Labour party, then the nasty Tories again. Some of the lyrics are quite naïve. I read somewhere when it came out that “in anybody else’s mouth, these lyrics would sound terrible, but Jason Williamson seems to make them believable”. I think it’s because I believed it. I was in this mix of discovering the idea of class consciousness and politics, my place in the world and why I was so pissed off all the time, you know, shit jobs, etc. It was a melting pot of all that, I think.

Yeah, it’s interesting how close anger comes to the surface it comes during recent events – like the football.

Football is one of the main vehicles for it and always has been, hasn’t it? I’ve never liked football for that. I’ve been more interested in the effects it has and the wreckage it creates. That was discussed on “Divide and Exit”, you know, sort of these panto sort of warriors tipping up to the match every Saturday, having a go at somebody else for whatever flag they’re waving or whatever. It don’t change, does it? I know a lot of people that were involved with it and aren’t now and just feel lost, they can’t shake out of that routine of drinking and watching the match. As much as that’s very sad, I think I’ve learned to forgive that in people as well.

Seeing you guys had some new artwork on the cover 10th anniversary sleeve as well. Is that Cold War Steve artwork on there as well (who did the video for you recently for “UK Grim”?

Yeah, he did a really good job with it. He brought out the kind of damp feeling that the white nexus got of a very narrow tunnel for the energy of the album to carry through and creates this condensation, this dampness. I think he really brought that out in the cover.

Yeah, I like how you’ve got almost medieval army figures, haven’t you? And then obviously the white van with the flag. It’s still just as relevant today, really.

I’d like to think that we will get past the idea of singular identities as countries. Get past the idea of killing each other. But these things are just so they’re in grained in ourselves, aren’t they? People eat their own. They don’t give a shit. It’s just the mothership hanging above everybody of patriotism, of whatever flag they’re stood behind. You know, that’s all that matters. Anything else is just eaten up. It’s quite violent, isn’t it, really, when you think about it?

We’ve had the election now. Does it feel more hopeful in the aftermath?

Well, I think the culture war thing will be less apparent. I’m hoping something will happen for people that need a better infrastructure to survive, that need a better life, that are sort of dwelling at the bottom of the social spectrum. I’m hoping this government will, eventually turn things around so people’s lives improve. But it’s hard to say, innit? People have just been embedded with doom, disaster and struggle for so long now. Thirteen odd years more than that, that it’s not even occurred to them. You’ve had that St Trinians wanker Boris Johnson going on about, “you’re gonna gonna have good life if you vote for Tory and Brexit. Let’s get it done, people”. It was a winning formula, wasn’t it? It’s “lashings of ginger ale” attitude. Like every stereotype you’ve seen in black and white films forever, and it’s embedded into people’s psyches. In this country, the aristocracy is only ever an inch away from the lower classes, you know, so it’s like they’re two of the same things, almost.

Yeah. You kind of feel it just walking through London, almost. It feels like people are just fucking sleepwalking sometimes, just going about their thing.

Yeah, it’s certainly more of a vacuum when you go outside. It just feels like you’re in the middle of space, you know what I mean? It’s just an eerie silence, bone tingling coldness surrounding you a lot of the time. It’s not a very nice place, the world at the minute, is it?

You know, it’s angry, isn’t it? Most of the time.

People hide. I find myself hiding behind things I can do financially, like buying clothes going out, buying a fucking sports car and cleaning that once a week. Joining Facebook groups and talking to them about exhausts. You just feel very powerless. Even when your life has turned around, you still feel like you are dangling mid air. You’re at the mercy of the whip. You know what I mean?

Are there certain things you feel like you have to keep out of sometimes or want to keep out of in your writing, like the bigger political things…

I think so. Without naming subjects, I learned the lesson last year on social media towards the end of the year, and I think there’s just some things that we can’t alter. I read in an interview, somebody was like, “we’re on the right side of history. It’s a beautiful thing”. How can you say that with all this slaughter going on? It’s just not a product you can pick up and put in the air, you know? So, yes, there are things that I stay away from because it’s an impossible thing to approach in some respects.

Yeah, I get it. It’s coming through your lens, but they’re hugely complex issues.

It’s constant. We’re not wankers. We don’t believe in supporting things that destroy other people. That’s clear. That’s always been part of who we are. You know what I mean? It just makes no sense to be drawn into something because everybody else is though. Just think for yourself. I think, a lot of people feel pressurised.

Yeah. You notice on social media, people almost call out for it sometimes, like a sort of baying crowd. They’re like, “why aren’t you using your platform to talk about this?”

It’s nonsensical. It becomes quite dark and then it becomes absolutely nothing about the thing that they think they’re representing in.

Social media definitely has to be rationed for sane thought, doesn’t it?

I have done since the end of last year. Stepped away from it and it’s been good. I’ve gone back onto Twitter a bit of late. As long as I don’t argue with people, it’s generally alright. It is quite dark. A lot of these accounts that have got 3400 followers and all they do is attack people all day. It’s like, what the fuck’s that?

Anger is people thinking something should be one way in their mind versus the reality they are confronted with. Loads of people have it and approach it in different ways. Your anger is focused and helps people – a force for good. Other people are on there just battering out hate. The algorithm is feeding it to them.

I think people are starting to step away from it and being more internal as opposed to sharing every second of their life on it.

Definitely. You see it now with Facebook. That’s like a graveyard. I don’t think a lot of people use that particularly.

Ironically, it’s probably one of the least threatening sites now, but it’s just so horrible. It’s like going into a second-hand shop and there being nothing in there of interest, just things that remind you of some bleak time in your life or whatever. Or nosy at someone’s holiday snaps. You’ve got to curtail it.

How does it work now for you? In terms of when you’re writing material. Has the method changed or do you just kind of get inspired and do it? Or do you have to put yourself in new situations now to try and to get in a creative space?

No, it just comes along. I put my ears in different situations. I listen to a lot of music, try and be inspired by other artists, which always helps. It’s the most obvious thing you do when you look for inspiration, but a lot of people don’t do it. Surprisingly, a lot of people don’t listen to music in our game. It’s weird, but I try and listen and try and be inspired, but also culturally, politically, that always seeps in and those things combined and just. It feels like you’ve got to constantly win the platform again. Which I don’t think there’s anything wrong with. It’s important to write interesting stuff. I always like to listen to interesting stuff. It’s inspiring. And I’d like to think that we constantly do that in our world.

What are you listening to at the minute? That’s inspiring you, or is new to you as well?

I hate to say it, but David Bowie. I fucking hate Bowie sycophants. If I see another person with that fucking lightning going on his face…But I’ve been listening to “Station to Station” a lot. Brilliant. Then “Low”, back down to “Hunky Dory”. Yeah, and “Scary Monsters”. What he’s good at is giving you an idea if you’re lacking in inspiration. It’s weird. It’s like a manual. Back in the day if your car broke down, you buy a manual and the engine bits would be in it. These clear diagrams and it’s like, oh, fuck. It’s that. That’s what his music’s like even though I don’t always like what he’s saying.

He was almost like the ultimate curator, wasn’t he? He could just select things, and he knew what was going to work next.

What the fuck is that? It’s just like, how the fuck are you doing that?! You know? So that’s interesting. I’m listening to some classic hip hop. Bit of Fred Neil. A real mix mash of stuff. Tim Buckley. Even though I’m not necessarily approaching vocals like that, it’s really nice to just listen to stuff that I don’t think I can use.

It still probably touches it in a certain way and you absorb it?

I think so, yeah, it encourages a bit of melancholy, sometimes I think that’s a real powerful emotion for songs. Definitely as Sleaford carries on, you know.

Yeah. Have you ever actually heard. Have you ever seen that David lynch movie lost highway?

No.

They use “Song to the Siren” really well. A Buckley cover by This Mortal Coil. There’s loads of Bowie in that movie too, actually.

I’m gonna search that out and watch that later.

I like how when I saw you At All Points East, the Aldous Harding crowd must have not been expecting you to come out and sing with her.

I really wish I could have done more shows with her. She asked me to do a few more. I just couldn’t do it because I was gigging. I love Anna to bits. She’s wicked, you know what I mean?

She’s so compelling. I love that she does this thing with her face when she sings. It’s almost like she’s living it out. It’s genius.

I was blown away when I saw her first time, Tasmania. I met her afterwards and we talked and, you know, sort of kept in touch, you know.

Do you think you’d try and get her on a Sleaford’s track as well?

It could be a possibility, you know. Nothing’s come up that I thought, oh, she’ll sound great on that. Yeah, but, you know, never say never.

So, your writing process hasn’t really changed. You don’t feel like you have to consciously kind of, I don’t know, put yourself in new things?

Yeah, I’ve never done that. It’s whatever comes. I think there’s more opportunity to create an idea of resistance in just being, rather than pairing yourself with a role of absorbing emotion.

Like some sort of magpie, you know.

People ask, “How do you prepare for a show?” And I’m like, well, “I don’t. I just walk on stage”. “But don’t, you know, don’t you start, you know, winding yourself up”. What for? This isn’t theatre. Well, it kind of is theatre, but it’s also not. You gotta let it grow inside. As the gig starts, it starts stirring. So, yeah, I don’t look for. I don’t, go out and sit in a job queue or something. I think it’s a bit disingenuous innit. I think people work like that – fine. But I find it a bit…It’s not natural. You know what I mean?

It’s just some people do, don’t they?

I think Sleaford was built on absorbing things around me. The way people spoke, the language people used, the slang. They were never from a different part of life than mine. It was always friends or people I worked with who I knew. It was never anything, anybody out of my social group, to be honest, because I found anything outside of that less interesting. So yeah, I do find that a bit disturbing, people doing that. Things should be real. I know that’s a bit of a cliche, but I think things should be au naturel. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, definitely. I think that’s what resonates with Sleafords. It’s obvious that it is real. A lot of the time these days within half a minute you just know if a band is a load of shit. They’ve cobbled together a few influences. They look a bit moody, but it doesn’t ring true of anything. They just look like some students who’ve, absorbed a few influences and are now playing a role and that’s it. They’re doing a music video and they’ve got those serious faces on.

Yeah. The age-old thing, innit? What’s also very sad about that is a lot of these bands become massive, you know, and you’re almost. You almost kid yourself into thinking they’re all right. It’s like a Stockholm syndrome thing. It’s weird. It’s like you’re being held captive by mediocrity.

Are you guys already working on new stuff, then? New album “UK Grim” only just came out last year.

Kind of, but new album 2026. I think we’re gonna have next year off, so we’re gonna spend most of the year doing a recording and a doing a new album. Taking our time. This is the first time we’ve not kicked out an album every other year, so it would be a bit weird having a year off, but I’m knackered. Just. It’s been a full ten years. 12 years nearly. Full on. Full on. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.

Do you reckon you’ll get restless or just go on more car exhaust forums?

I don’t think so, you know, I’ll just clean the car twice a week and do the garden. You know what I mean? I quite like doing the garden, so, yeah, I’ll do that as well.

This is delivered with a slight glint in the eye. Jason’s sheer love of music really shines through every element of the interview. In the way he appreciates and respects other artists. One thing’s for sure. We need Sleaford Mods and their time off is only going to enable them to come back stronger. Divide and Exit is well worth revisiting in the meantime.